Responses To Questions

The best way to defend the Scriptures is to turn them loose. Whenever there is a debate, it appears one party or the other gets offended. The offended party is usually the one who cannot prove his/her point.

One thing about conflicting thoughts, (debates) they bring everyone into the conversation, and nobody has to be left out. Concerning my word research, I am extremely careful in each Greek word’s smallest detail, correct according to the Greek and Hebrew that has been passed down over the centuries. Now if it offends people, I can’t help that.

A reader wrote, “Calling an entire movement or denomination is a very serious charge. It is likely to enflame some very intense reactions on both sides, so I want to inject a cautionary note here.

Second, I think it’s important to define what a cult is and to recognize that just because a group of people takes a different position on theological issue than WE do doesn’t necessarily make their church a cult.”

Phil wrote: “One question must be asked concerning your use of the pronoun “We” in your comment. Every pronoun must have a reference noun which is missing here in your statement. Does “We” refer to you and me or to the opinion of the O.C.C? If O.C.C., are you the censor, or spokesman for the group? Clarification would be essential to the pronoun used.

Phil wrote, “Pdstein, I have been given a gift. It’s not a popular gift, and usually turns people away because it is the gift of discernment. I made a promise many years back to uphold the truths written in the Bible, and I intend to keep my word to the Lord. I am the nose, the bloodhound in the body of Christ. I have a good sense of smell when it comes to bad doctrines and bad teachings, because, this is my gift. When people say I am wrong, I don’t get offended; I prove my point through the Scriptures. I intend to stand firm in upholding Scriptural truths. I am not accusing anyone of anything, but I will speak out against what I call deceptive, unscriptural doctrines.

I try never to have any preconceived opinion about a subject under study. If I did, it would be no better than anyone else’s opinion. I prove and support my comments with Scriptures. I also do an intensive word study when I respond to questions. Whoever may disagree with me has this forum to prove diverse thoughts, or opinions.

Pdstein wrote, “First of all I think it’s very important for you to explain whether you are referring to a particular denomination such as the United Pentecostal Church or are you referring to the general Pentecostal movement.

Phil wrote, “My reply was to a question asked of me in reference to the tongue’s movement in the Pentecostal church. It went like this,

Question, “Phil, I was wondering are you saying Pentecostal churches are cults ?”

My response was,

“This may be a tricky question. Why? Because I believe that in every denomination there are those who are saved, not falling into the traps set by false teachers.

Note, This would include the Pentecostal church.”

Pdstein wrote, “Second, I think it’s important to define what a cult is and to recognize that just because a group of people takes a different position on theological issue than we do doesn’t necessarily make their church a cult. Is the issue of tongues an essential tenet of the Christian faith? Or is it a non-essential issue where Christians can disagree without their soul being in jeopardy.

Phil wrote, “non-essential, a different position!” Let’s examine the results of this non-essential teaching.

1. The meaning of the Greek and Hebrew word “tongues,” has been changed, and given a very different meaning. I can’t believe that the Lord would consider twisting His word to be called “a non-essential matter.”

2. This practice of speaking in an incoherent language has divided many in the church. So my question is, If God is not the author of confusion, then who or what is causing this confusion?

3. The roots of incoherent speaking came from various sects (idol worshippers) especially in the city of Corinth. The oracles of Delphi, where women prostitutes babbled (incoherently) to their gods! We also see this in Voo-do, and other ancient cults who practiced this very thing. The Pentecostal church is the new guy on the block, life span to this day, about 120 or 130 years.

4. When people who profess to be Christian, add or subtract words, rewrite word definitions, change doctrines, mislead, etc. I call this the work of anti-Christ’s. Example, the New World Translation of the Bible, complements of the Jehovah Witnesses. Are we not to speak out against their anti-Christian work? Or am I to worry about offending someone in that organization?

pdstein wrote, “On this latter point, I will share with you OurChurch.Com’s position. Generally speaking, we believe the issue of tongues is a non-essential issue. I can find no place in scripture that says a person cannot be saved if they claim to speak in tongues.

Calling an entire movement or denomination is a very serious charge. It is likely to enflame some very intense reactions on both sides, so I want to inject a cautionary note here.

Phil wrote, I never called an entire movement a cult. You need to reexamine my whole article carefully.”

Phil wrote, “You say tongues is a ‘non-essential issue.” You would be correct if the Greek and Hebrew meaning of the words were adhered to, however, when words are changed to say what they were NOT meant to say, this is mis-leading and dangerous.

A little leaven will leaven the whole loaf. The Greek and Hebrew meaning of the word Tongues, or Language is quite clear throughout Scripture. It does NOT mean to speak in an incoherent language, therefore, I challenge that teaching.

Pdstein wrote, “It sounds to me as though you are referring in general to the Pentecostal movement and in particular to any church that endorses the gift of tongues.”

Phil wrote, Pdstein, it depends on what YOU mean by, “gift of tongues.” If you mean to speak in known languages never studied, this being a gift from God, I agree. But to speak in a language not known on this earth? It’s the Bible that would disagree in both the Greek and Hebrew. I just researched, wrote, and then printed my findings. Again, I have no preconceived opinion on this matter.

Revelation 22:18, “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.” To add means to give another meaning to what is written.

Pdstein wrote, “Second, I think it’s important to define what a cult is and to recognize that just because a group of people takes a different position on theological issue than we do doesn’t necessarily make their church a cult. Is the issue of tongues an essential tenet of the Christian faith? Or is it a non-essential issue where Christians can disagree without their soul being in jeopardy.”

Phil wrote, “Cult, sect, heresy all take on the same meaning, to imply discord, dissension, that which is chosen, a chosen course of thought and action; hence one’s chosen opinion, tenet; Acc. or Accommodation; theology. A cult, sect, or heresy implies any application of a passage to something not originally intended by it, on the ground of resemblance or analogy. The context, if an opinion varying from the true exposition of the Christian faith, or the specific time the Scripture was written, is referred to as “heresy.”

My final say. I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart and soul. I will defend the Scriptures at whatever cost. Why, because I believe the Scriptures to be the infallible word of God.

I have been given this gift of discernment. I try to use it wisely, and I will use it when necessary. If the truth hurts, let it hurt here, and not in eternity. I will not be accused when I stand before the Lord, of burying my gift because I was afraid to offend someone.

This debate is a hot issue, but definitely not “a non-essential matter.” The body of Christ has split because of it. I believe a great deal of information can be exchanged between various writers who desire to get involved in this discussion. The truth needs to be aired.

Those who disagree with what I publish will NOT be heard from concerning the meaning of the word “tongues.” Why, because no lexicon or dictionary will support their position.

I publish my articles carefully, and with a great deal of research behind them. If I am going to be told, don’t say this or don’t write about that, I will lodge my protest now. How can we profess to be Christians, teach the Scriptures, and not offend people? That is a foolish and ridiculous notion for Christianity is offensive in itself to most of the world’s people.

Christ offended many. The apostles offended many. History is littered with the bodies of those who chose to offend and confront.

When Christian children pull out a Bible in school they are told, “Put that book away, you are offending others.” We are told not to speak up in public meetings, court rooms, don’t pray in school, don’t talk about God on the job, you are offending people. Christians are like ostriches that have their heads buried in the sand.

To conclude, If anyone can show me that my articles are incorrect, I will be the first to put in a correction, and add an apology. What I do, I do in Love. Hopefully this is not the beginning of censorship on this forum. Is it?

Phillip LaSpino

Pdstein wrote, “However it seems to me that neither of you is understanding what I am saying concerning essential and non-essential issues of the Christian faith. When I call something a “non-essential” issue that does not mean it’s unimportant. It simply means that a persons beliefs in that area will not impact their eternal destination.

Phil wrote. Everything written in the Scriptures will impact our eternal salvation. Let’s begin with Adam’s bad judgment. Abraham’s liaison with Hagar, resulting in Ishmael, eventually costs millions of lives over the centuries, and the birth of the Muslim religion. Moses’s striking the rock instead of speaking over it resulted in his not entering the Promised Land.

David’s numbering the people when God told him not to, resulted in thousands of deaths. Saul’s offering a sacrifice in the temple cost him his kingdom and his life. Ananias and Sapphira kept back a small part of the land funds they received, and in doing so, lied about the total amount they profited for the land. Because of this, Ananias and Sapphira forfeited their lives.

These as well as many other cases can be sited. All caused because people have decided to give a little twist to God’s commands. What may be non-essential to mortals may NOT be non-essential to God. Christians must pay close attention to God’s exact words, because the penalty has often been severe.

1. Pdstein, are you saying the things of Scripture, be they great or small, are not relative, meaning not absolute concerning our salvation?

2. That there is NO correct or incorrect way in which God commands us to worship Him, both in large and small things?

3. That there exists a gray area of personal choice that we all have, and this is how we can individually or denominationally worship God?

I am going to use your comments to show why we have an extreme variety in the interpretation of the Bible, and in the worship of God.

Let me start with an illustration. I once knew three men who purchased for their sons a toy, a robot, that could talk, walk forward, backward, and sideways. Each man purchased the toy, brought it home, opened the box, and displayed the parts in an open area of the room.

Now there were various bolts, nuts, and screws of varying lengths and thickness, about 25 small parts, two major parts, and a remote control. Ten of the parts resembled each other in some areas, the others not so much. Also the box contained a set of instructions of how to assemble the Robot.

After each man had displayed the parts, he took the instruction manual and opened it. The manual was 8 pages long, and needed to be examined closely in order not to make an error in the toy assembly.

The first man read the manual closely, made notes, separated the parts, collected the proper tools needed for assembly, and began his work.

The second man, speed read through the manual, assembled the tools he thought he could use, jotted down a few notes, but did not separate the various bolts or similar parts.

The third man was extremely arrogant. Setting the instruction manual aside, this man picked up a few tools, piled all the nuts, bolts, and parts in a heap before him to hastily begin the project.

When finished, the first man picked up his remote, and the Robot performed exactly as the instructions stated. It worked perfectly.

The second man pressed his remote, and the toy walked forward, but not backward, nor did it move side to side. It mumbled a few words and inadvertently halted for no apparent reason.

The third man pressed his remote. This toy hissed a few incoherent words, and fell over.

So what’s the lesson here? If the second and third man had been diligent in examining the instruction book , the robot would have worked perfectly, just as it had for the first man. Because the second and third men had not spent sufficient time, nor given their attention to the specific instructions for the toy, there was failure in their efforts, and a disappointed child as well.

This can also be applied to the study of the Scriptures. Those who read through, but do not examine closely the Greek and Hebrew words, the text, and context, relevant to other parts of Scripture, particular supporting verses, who is speaking, to whom they are speaking, the economy of the day, and the setting, these teachers fail in the final product of understanding the Scriptures. It’s a long process, one that requires dedication, hard work, love, and servitude toward Christ. Today’s church is crumbling from within. There are over 2000 supposed Christian denominations in the U.S.A. Cults or sects are springing up within the Christian community.

I will now use exact wording to show the meaning from dialogue.

Pdstein wrote, “I am concerned because It sounds to me as though in your view nothing is “non-essential.” This seems to be your reasoning:”

1) I have the God-given gift of discernment

2) Because I have the gift of discernment my interpretation of scripture is the only correct interpretation.

Phil wrote, Discern: Discerning: 1253. Greek is, diakrisis. Discerning of spirits. The ability which the Holy Spirit gives to some in the faith to discern between those who speak by the Holy Spirit and those who are moved by false spirits.

Phil wrote, “I never implied in any way that my interpretation of the Scriptures was the only way. I have no idea from where this idea originated, certainly not from my article.”

3) Pdstein wrote, “Because my interpretation is the only correct one, everyone who disagrees with me is teaching false doctrine.”

Phil wrote, “An examination of my article closely reveals only the Greek and Hebrew meaning of the word, “Tongues.” This is not a personal interpretation, but rather the meaning from dictionaries and lexicons. And they all agree.

4) Pdstein wrote, “Everyone who teaches false doctrine is a cult .”

Phil wrote, “Yes, this is a true statement. Teaching false doctrine places one in the category of an anti-Christ. These false teachers will be cast into the lake of fire on that great day of judgment. Our Judge, Jesus Christ states this from the Scripture, and that is irrefutable.

5) Pdstein wrote, “Therefore, everyone who disagrees with my interpretation of scripture is a cult.”

Phil wrote, “Question four (4) does not apply to question five (5.) I never said anyone who disagrees with me is in a cult. Nothing in my article even remotely implies that statement. I only post the research that is available from documented sources.

There is a problem, a real condition that exists in society today. People are in a hurry. Some read the Bible through once, or listen to a local pastor on Sunday. These hurried individuals jot down a few notes, restrict themselves to only one teaching, and close the door to other opinions. Some may spent an hour a week in study, even take one course in Greek, and give everyone the impression that they are authorities in that language.

Most people do not want to spend quality time examining the Scriptures thoroughly. Everyone wants to be a teacher. Most people simply repeat what a local pastor states, or believes, and then repeat what they hear on TV, radio, or read from some book they found. All this activity occurs WITHOUT a full examination of what one has heard or read. This apparently gives everyone license to teach, even if what one teaches is only partly correct.

Most people have become careless in reading the instruction book. From personal experience, most people have learned, after placing one part or piece together incorrectly, the rest of the project becomes a failure. The result of incorrect information, and improper procedure will lead to incorrect findings. The result will always be a total failure, a failure in the eyes of God. All who have been given so much will be without any legitimate excuse. If one leads others astray, the consequence will be devastating.”

Pdstein wrote, “If this is accurate, then according to that reasoning there is no room to “agree to disagree on even the smallest issues within the body of Christ.”

Phil wrote, “I did not mean to appear hard, or confrontational, but Christians cannot be moved by every wind of doctrine. Christianity has become a raging sea, voices coming from every small corner. The instructions are that time is short, so please read the instruction book carefully. How one receives God’s instructions will surely determine one’s eternal destiny.

Your friend in the Lord Jesus Christ,

Phillip LaSpino

Cathie Miller, First let me thank you for responding. You are the first person who speaks in this unwritten language to comment in words your thoughts. After reading these comments, for the most part I disagree with you except for, “Wow, and ” “and if I have read the book correctly Jesus is coming soon.” I don’t take any negative comments personally. What I am is a very careful researcher of the Bible, which is one of my strengths, which apparently you question, but that’s OK because you don’t know me.

Let me start with a short story. I have always been a science fiction buff. Give me a good movie around creatures like the Predator, Alien, Frankenstein, a bag of popcorn and I am happy. Frankenstein has always been my favorite, especially when Abbot and Costello had a run in with this very large born again creature. Funny movie!

If the readers of this forum have ever seen a Frankenstein movie, they know he was quite large, made from various human limbs that had been spliced together, had a criminal brain, and was jumpstarted by an electrical circuit. Well, old Frankie was exceedingly strong, not very bright, had a brain inherited from a criminal, the previous owner of that particular organ. Frankie was not exactly a Rhodes Scholar, so because of certain brutish tendencies, others did his thinking for him. The only words he ever uttered were, “Yes master,” and, “Ogg.”

Frankie had a new body with an old brain. As the story is told, doctors worked to install a more functional brain, compatible to the civilized society. But alas, Frankie died before receiving his new brain.

So what’s my point? Many who profess to be Christians say they are born again, new creatures in Christ. Yet many new Christians carry with this supposed new condition, the same old worldly brain. Does this formula work?

The Christian experience is based on emotions, personal desires and preferences, or some out of mind experience. New Christians receive or desire pastors and teachers who are chosen, because of appearance or certain mannerisms, comfortable surroundings, or sing-song music. For some Christians the choice of fellowship in a certain place may be because family and friends gather there. These choices are based on the old man’s desires and needs, and these so called born again people are continually driven by old tendencies and inclinations.

Christian thoughts and attitudes often remain worldly, with pride, boasting, stubbornness, confusion and strife dominating attitudes and position. These Christians may harden their hearts, become deaf and blind to the Scriptural truths, and trust in feelings and emotions rather than Scriptural absolutes. These things will not be received into Christ’s kingdom. So what to do? John gives us a clue,

John 5:39, “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

I assume John was referring to each and every book of the Bible when he makes reference to, “Searching the Scriptures.” He is not speaking about a once through, thank you; but a lifelong commitment to study. So what does it mean to search the Scriptures? The definition of the word search, “ereunao” from the Greek, means “To search into, to investigate, to explore!

“Search” is a transitive verb, meaning when the action expressed by a verb is exerted on an object, or terminates upon it, the act is considered as passing to the object, thus the verb is called transitive. The following verses give one the information needed to understand, and qualify the word fully.

1. John 5:39, is quoted above.

2. John 7:52, Nicodemus said to Jesus, “Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.”

3. Rom.8:27, “He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”

4. Revelation 2:23, Jesus said, “I am He which searcheth the reins (inner most thoughts of the mind) and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”

5. 1 Corinthians 2:10, “The Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”

6. 1 Peter 1:11, “searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the suffering of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” .”

7. Septuagint, for “he search,” Genesis  44:12. 1 Kings 20:6, “My servants — they shall search thine house.” 2 Samuel 10:3, “search the city.”

Some may NOT think it important to know the correct meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words used in the Bible. But God chose the Greek language to record the Good News of the Gospel. Every word applied is a clue needed to receive a full understanding of the whole.

Paul observes,

2 Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” Notice the idea of, “the man of God may be perfect.” How, by the study of Scripture!

The English word “search,” can be applied in several ways. A few synonyms are seek, probe, examine, explore, sound, investigate and inquiry. In the Greek there are four (4) Greek words for search or searched, each having a slightly different meaning. The Greek breaks the word down, where English does not.

This is where many Christians err when they apply one meaning of the word “search” to every word search they come across. So why do Christians do this? They may feel it is not important, they may be negligent, or they may intentionally corrupt the word for whatever reason.

So like the Frankenstein monster, many Christians allow others to think for them, dictate the meaning of words, phrases, and subjects. The response is, “Yes Master.” Some Christians claim to be born again, but retain the old brain.

Now I would like to respond to another reader. On my job, I let my Christian faith be known to all. I show my faith on the job, and in my personal life. I feel deeply about my personal responsibility to both mankind and God.

In the Scriptures I found a home. Here is a little side note.

I lost my mother to the Jehovah witnesses, my immediate family, sisters and brothers-in-law are all Jehovah Witnesses, whereas the rest of my family is Catholic. Although my family consider me the black sheep of the family, The Lord took me from a wild life of gambling, course friends, anti-Christian attitudes, cheating, friends who drank, did drugs, caroused, etc.

In my ignorance, the Lord protected me. When I received Him, I was in my late forties. I made one commitment to the Lord Jesus, to be faithful to every word written in the Biblical text. I asked only one thing from God, wisdom with understanding. What He gave me was the gift of discernment. I also consider my desire to research the Scriptures a gift. I spend roughly 30 hours a week in the word, and in word studies, still wishing I had more time.

When I first thought about becoming a Christian, I spent one year in seclusion studying the man, Jesus Christ. If I was going to worship Him, I wanted to know who He was, and what He represented. When I came to an understanding of who He was, I received it by faith. I took another year to study the Holy Spirit, my beginning of life as a Christian.

I knew nothing about computers, and web-sites, yet God has blessed my web-site. I am now researching a Greek dictionary that can be seen on the site. This is for the average lay-person, and for pastors to experience and get a full understanding of the Greek words used in the Bible. I have broken down each word, and have given support verses to each word. All the Greek is translated into English so the average person can understand . I pretty much work alone! My research has been quite an experience and the dictionary has opened my eyes. Many questions have been answered in the study of the Greek language. Everybody should do a word study. Hopefully I will complete it in two more years.

Again, I take nothing personal, have no opinions, and take no sides except that which the Scriptures reveal.

A reader wrote, “Wow!  as I read this discussion it reminded me of the Jews at the time Jesus came. They argued about “laws”, specifics and “words”. Who was right and who was wrong.”

Phil wrote, “Jesus went after the leaders, the Pharisees, Sadducees, Lawyers, etc. His comments were directed at them, these men had twisted, and added to God’s words, the results, the people were led astray.” They hardened their hearts to the God they claimed to worship. In this, they sinned.

Reader wrote, “Let me start by saying I have always heard people from a certain denomination go on and on about “snake handlers, and people rolling up and down the aisles.” I have NEVER seen that. I have been in a lot of different non-denominational churches and never once have I seen that. If you have, please send me a picture.”

Phil wrote, “The Pentecostal churches in Tennessee usually lose 1 or 2 people each year to snake bites. A major network did a special on national T.V. a few years back which was very enlightening. (They used rattle snakes.} In this, the snake handlers endeavor to prove they possess the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These people are attempting to imitate Paul’s encounter with a viper in Acts 28.

Also turn on your local Christian broadcasting and watch the live show of people falling to the ground, acting as if they are in convulsions. The only time we read in Scriptures about people doing these things is when they become demon possessed.

Benny Hine is a good example. He was questioned by a team of reporters that followed him around for a year. He never responded to any questions, even though the reporters had dates, names, and places that proved him to be a false healer. This was shown several times on national TV. I have it on tape, and hisis actions and responses were those of a man who was clearly attempting to cover up. Benny Hine became an embarrassment to the Lord.

Reader wrote, “Getting back to my first statement, Jesus was popular because the people of His day had truly had it with the “arguing” over the Word. They needed to see the Love of God demonstrated. Jesus got to their level; He healed the sick, gave hope to the Lost and changed lives never once getting into a deep discretion of the world.”

Phil wrote, “Yes He did quite a few miracles, signs and wonders for the people. Yet He was so popular that when He died, not one person remained with Him. He was so popular they whipped Him twice, pulled his hair out by the roots, placed a crown of thrones on His head, and then crucified Him. Yes! The people saw the love he demonstrated, and responded with the following words as He hung on the cross.”

Matt.27:42-43, the people said to Him, “He (Jesus) saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. He trusted in God (the Father;) let Him (the Father) deliver Him now, if He will have Him: for He said I am the Son of God.”

“What Jesus said to the religious leaders of that day, He most likely would repeat to the religious leaders of this day,”

Matt.23:3, “Whatsoever they (religious leaders) bid you (the people) observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. ver.5, “all their (religious leaders) works they do for to be seen of men: ver.7, “and greetings in the markets.

Ver.13, Jesus said, “Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Ver.15, “ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.”

“So reader are you saying Jesus never got into a deep dissection of the word?” I can write a book on His confrontations with the religious leaders of the day. Also John wrote about anti-christs and liars. He had one man in mind, that man was, Cerinthus was a Gnostic heretic. John put some serious condemnation on him in 1 John.”

Reader wrote, “With all due respect to the man who started this topic, perhaps you should leave us Pentecostals alone and go and offer the lost something. Come sit and read my email for a day. I am an ordained womens’ minister who spends a great deal of my day reading email from women who are in pain. The kind of pain that only the UNCONDITIONAL Love of the Savior can minister too. You talk about Pentecostals being “greedy”. Last year my ministry received about 150.00 total, and yet our outgo was over 3500.00. ”

I advise you to get in the trenches with some of us. If it were not for the Supernatural holding protection of the Holy Spirit, we wouldn’t be able to withstand the attacks we take for walking into Satan’s territory.”

Phil wrote, “I congratulate you on your humanitarian work, but I was not aware that you knew me. From your statements, I don’t see much of the love of which you speak You have never been to my home, seen my work for the Lord, spoken with the people who know me, and most likely never have read my work concerning the Lord. But that’s OK, at least you received 150.00 more than I did last year.

I have probably been in more real trenches then you can ever imagine. The difference is, I don’t let my left hand know what my right hand is doing.”

Reader wrote, “If you could get every Pentecostal to quit talking in tongues then what would you have?”

Phil wrote, “I will assume that is a question that requires an answer. So what would I expect? I would expect more pastors and teachers to read and teach the Word of God, in a language people can understand.”

Reader wrote, “A bunch of folks without love spewing judgment and working to do the same you do?”

Phil wrote, “Apparently you don’t understand the difference between teaching and what you call, spewing judgment. I have doubts as to you ever having read my original comments. I responded to a question asked of me by a reader. Because someone may disagree with you, does not mean they are judging you. I will leave judgement to the Lord.”

Reader wrote, “Quit trying to save the saved and work on the lost. With all due respect.”

Phil wrote, “That’s a pretty humble opinion you have of yourself. Reminds me of the parable of the two men who went into the temple to pray. Luke 18:10-11, “The one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican (tax collector.)”

Ver.14, the Lord responded, “This man (the Publican (the one who humblied himself) went down to his house justified rather than the other. For every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” There’s a story behind the parable, we should consider it.”

Reader wrote, “Don’t bother giving me a lecture on women ministers. I don’t preach, I encourage, edify and uplift.”

Phil wrote, “from your statements, I can tell how much you edify and uplift. Again I don’t preach or lecture! I try to help people, and teach the Bible with word studies. You should try the word studies, they work rather well. Painting is rather hard work.

Reader wrote, “My husband is an old testament scholar and just let me say that if I wanted to I could give you many scriptures to show you that your argument is wrong…but I have better things to do.

 

Phil wrote, “Ask your husband to find me one case in well over 100 where the word tongues in the O.T. means anything else other than a known language. He will not because He can’t, because there is none. You can turn the house inside out, and you will not find what your looking for.

Because this debate concerns millions of us who feel that speaking in a language not written or known to men has divided the body of Christ, it is a very important issue. If not, what is? To be honest I doubt very much that anyone can produce a recognized Greek or Hebrew dictionary that will give your interpretation of the word tongues as being an unknown incoherent unwritten language.”

Reader wrote, “In case you haven’t noticed the world is going to hell in a handspikes.”

Phil wrote, “Yes, I have noticed!”

Reader wrote, “would like to see as many folks as possible in heaven with the rest of us “tongue talkers”.

Phil wrote, “No comment.”

Let me conclude this debate. I personally don’t care if you wish to speak in this unknown language. But until one of you that teach this doctrine, prove scripturally that the Greek or Hebrew language supports that teaching, I will continue to respond to those who ask what my thoughts are.

If it is not Scriptural, which I believe to be the case, like any other doctrine that is not Biblical, I will speak out against it. Not for my sake, but for the sake of those who may be considering jumping in before they look.

Lexicography is the science of words, that branch of learning which teaches and applies the proper signification and just application of words. It’s a dictionary; a vocabulary, or book containing an alphabetical arrangement of the words in the Greek or Hebrew language, with the definition of each, or an explanation of its meaning.

We have linguist who are skilled in the languages, and acknowledged as teaches of Languages. What they do is to define words and the definition of a words, and give an explanation of the meaning and impact of words or terms, and to give the idea of what a word is understood to express.

We have translators: They interpret from one language into another language, words, phrases, etc. It is also to express the sense of one language in the words of another. The Hebrew Old Testament was translated into the Greek language more than two hundred years before Christ. Since then, both the Old and the New Testaments have been translated into most every language of the world. This work has been finished and completed by those whose love God. His Words are foremost in their minds and hearts as are mine.

Now in these present days here come the show-boaters, the boasters, the braggarts, the (great) men of renown, the know it alls. History or its experiences and lessons mean nothing. They feel everything needs to be changed. These don’t build, they tear down. The truth will always stand! God will make sure of that. Do as you may, try as you may, those who choose to exchange the truth for a lie will parish.

Phillip LaSpino  

 

To my reader, Phil wrote, “I read your comments, and the only thing that came to mind was, “WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?”

This is the debate section of the forum. It’s to talk about, ask questions, discuss, and get insight. From YOUR statements above, YOU are NOT willing to debate, either about speaking in tongues, or woman pastors. These are YOUR words, not mine. Apparently YOU’RE willing to teach about these things to those who will listen, but not discuss these issues with those who disagree with you. I presented my case systematically, then posted it.

There is an old maxim, “When a person cannot respond, or answer a question, he/she will begin to attack the person who asks the question.”

First of all are you sure you read my post before you responded?

Who said anything about Catholics? I am not a Catholic; I grew up as one, that’s all I said.

Who said your comments were not welcome? YOU refuse to debate or discuss, not me. You responded in the negative about my article, without any proof Scriptures.

Who said YOUR use of common language was less than worthy of my conversing with you? Show me these comments in quotes.

Who said YOU could not speak, or write on this forum? It’s not mine to determine.

YOU appear as others have done, to have sidestepped the original discussion and questions. Everything I said on this forum concerning this discussion, I supported with the Scriptures. I responded to your comments one by one. I put into quotations your comments, and responded as we are commissioned to do with Scriptural facts and evidence. I ask all readers to read my remarks on this particular subject which can be found above.

Yet the same question remains unanswered,

“Where is your evidence concerning the Greek and Hebrew meaning of the word “Tongues?” Bring forward one recognized dictionary or Lexicon showing that the meaning of tongues means anything else other than a known language, idiom or dialect of a language spoken in a nation, or by a particular group of people. The request is not outlandish; it’s reasonable, simple, and clear. It’s your responsibility as a pastor to:

2 Timothy 2:15, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” It’s not about me, you, or anyone else, it’s about truth, evidence, and Jesus Christ.

If you have the answer, please post it. If you do not have the answer, I will drop the discussion with you.

Phillip LaSpino

Prays4u.  wrote, good subject. One of my favorites!

What if?

1. The Light of Genesis 1, represented Jesus Christ?

2. The darkness represents Lucifer and the fallen angels?

3. What if the DIVISION = (firmament) of Light and darkness, meant the division of the spiritual world? Meaning God’s kingdom in heaven, forever separated from Lucifer and the fallen angels’ on earth?

4. What if the waters above the firmament represented the Holy voices of the Father, the Word (Jesus) the Holy Spirit and the Angeles in heaven: And the waters below represented the unholy voices of Lucifer and the fallen angels? In other words the firmament represented the division of the words spoken, and work done concerning those in heaven, and those who are now on the earth.

Out of time, need to go to work.

If anyone comments, I will respond. If you do not agree, give me one question at a time.

Except for the study on Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, this is my pet project.

Phillip LaSpino.

Prays4u said, Job 1 – He is walking to and fro from the earth but he has access to Heaven but his position is gone. Why does he go there?

Phil said, “I suppose when God calls any one, be they men, demons, or Satan himself, they must, and will present themselves before Him. Most likely this is the case in Job 1:6, and 2:1. I think of the firmament of Genesis 1 as a separation, a division of the spiritual world, as in words of truth, separated from Satan’s lies, Light from Darkness, good from evil.

As we humans cannot enter heaven in these bodies, yet our prayers can be heard in heaven. Yet we read of a few cases when men have been taken bodily into heaven, Elisha, Elijah, John in Revelation 4:2, Isaiah 6:1, as also Satan being called to present himself before God in Job 1 and 2.

Satan left heaven of his own accord, Jude 6. His words, works, deeds are no longer acknowledged as truths but as lies, and his works are those of a deceiver, and a murderer. These things are not of God, therefore forever separated from God.

Prays44 u said, “Revelation 12:10, And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”

Phil wrote, “I believe the event of Revelation 12:9-10-11, happen after Christ’s resurrection.

Satan left his first place in heaven under his own power, Revelation 12:6. He was an anointed Cherib, he walked in the holy mountain of God etc. We read this in Ezekiel 28:14-15-16-1718. Jude 6. Revelation 12:4.

In Rev.12:6, we see the great red dragon (himself) draw a third part of the angels of heaven, and he (Satan) cast them (the angels) to the earth. Satan’s tail is a way of saying, the angels followed behind; following him to the earth.  To cast them (the angels’) means, to throw, to cast, with a greater or lesser degree of force as modified by the context. This qualifies,

Jude 6. “The angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation.”

Prays4u, said, “At the present time Satan and his hordes of fallen angels freely travel back and forth between heaven and earth while pursuing their own evil plan of ruling over creation! And yet God continues to grant them the privilege of access to His throne. Why? We are not given any specifics, but it may be that God is “handicapping” the contest between Himself and Satan in some way, by granting concessions such as allowing him to be “the accuser of the brethren” (Rev.12:10).

Phil said, “Again my thinking is that after the resurrection of our Lord Jesus, Satan can no longer enter into the third heaven, nor can he present himself again before the throne of the Father. The next time he stands before the Father is before the great white throne judgment, Revelation 20:10. 

Back to the subject,

Genesis 1:4, “God divided the Light from the darkness.” And,

Genesis 1:6, “God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”

If the waters below the firmament represent the voices and works of darkness, and the waters above the firmament represent the voices and works of Light, we are told of the separation of Lucifer and the fallen angels from God. I will use a verse you quoted,

Psalms 148:4, ” “Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens.” Note, the waters above the heavens praise God. The word praise here means to sing, to celebrate. I believe the idea of heavens, waters, stars etc. used here in Psalms praising God are symbolic terms used for powers, principalities, dominions, etc., those who live here on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and in the heavens, both in the spiritual and the material world.

We see many examples of waters in both the O.T. and the N. T. Christ words are often referred to as living waters. John 4:10-11, 7:38, Revelation 17:7.

The words of God are as waters coming from high places. Isa. 41:19, “I (God) will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys. I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.”

Isaiah 44:3, “I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground.” Trop. or metaphors, spoken of boastful deceivers and seducers, who are called,

2 Peter 2:17, “wells without water.” Jude 12, “clouds they are without water,” as in fountains or clouds that promise much water, but deceive those who rely on them.

Revelation 1:17, “His (Jesus) voice as the sound of many waters.” In,

Revelation 14:2, the voices in heaven are as many waters.” Rev.19:6, “the voices of a great multitude were as “the voices of many waters.”

Your thoughts:

 Phil LaSpino

Prays4u.

Thank you for your comment on Rev.6:7-8-910. They were well thought out, and made sense. I would like to examine this subject in Rev.6, further. You made a few points that made me say yes as I read them. We can have a discussion concerning this subject after I search the Scriptures on the points you had made so eloquently. Thanks.

What I would like to do, is discuss further the “firmament.” Your Hebrew interpretation on the word is quite correct. Here is the definition you posted, and I agree fully.

The term “firmament” and its identity has been one of the greatest puzzles concerning the Creation account, mostly because of its Hebrew definition:
Strongs Hebrew Definition # 7549: eyqr raqiya` raw-kee’-ah from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:–firmament. Strongs Hebrew Definition # 7554: eqr raqa` raw-kah’ a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):–beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

What I would like to do is examine the possibilities as to what the firmament is. Following are few conditions that may be considered. If you have any others please post them.

1. It is a solid object like a ceiling, wall, etc. that has been set in place to separate literal water. Some water is below the other is above this material ceiling. (I don’t think so.)

2. It is symbolic. Therefore it represents something that separates literal water from water. (I dont think so.)

3. At the point of creation, the literal waters filled fully the space we call the first and second heaven. So the firmament represents something unseen that now separates our atmosphere from what is referred to as outer space. What happened to the water above the firmament?

4. The firmament represent a division by God of the heavenly host, those who remained in heaven, from the fallen angels, those who came down to earth. See my article on, “When did Lucifer fall?”

I compare the idea of a firmament to that which is found in Luke 16:26. The story of the rich man and Lazarus. “Beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed.” This gulf fixed is to divide the saved from the unsaved. This form of division may also apply to fallen angels, and those who remain with God in heaven.

Now before you decide, Let’s look at the first chapter of Gen. concerning the creation.

Gen.1:1, “God created the heaven and the earth.” Heaven, plural, speaking of the empty expanse of the atmosphere and outer space itself. I take this verse literally. The heaven (space) meaning the height, width, breath, the atoms, molecules, etc, of the atmosphere and all of outer space. No planets, solar systems, neither sun, moon, stars, birds, flying insects etc. The earth consisting of the core, mantel, crust, etc. all covered by water, no life forms of any kind.

2. Gen.1:2, We are told that darkness was upon the face of the deep. Deep meaning the bottom of the oceans, or the gates of hell. The Holy Spirit is moving upon the face (surface) of the waters. Question: why is it said that the darkness is only upon the surface (face) of the depths of the oceans, or the gates of hell, and not above the waters?

3. Gen.1:3, Light is introduced. Question if we are to take the verse literally, then what could the source of this light be? There is only one answer. For the sun, moon and stars are not yet in existence, they being created on the fourth day. It has to be the Glory of God come to the earth to begin the creation. See Rev.22:5, I believe represents the condition of this young earth. “There shall be no — light of the sun, for the Lord God giveth them light:” Also John 1:5, “The Light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”

4. Gen.1:4, here the light is called good, yet the darkness is not called good.

5. “God called the light Day.” Note upper case “Day,)” denoting a name, title or characteristic. “The darkness He (God) called Night.” Again note upper case for “Night.” Compare with the literal day and night of the fourth day, Both day and night are in lower case.

5. Now God divides the light from the darkness. So my question would be, how is this possible if there is no literal light given by a sun, moon or stars? These had not yet been created.

So back to the original question, “God said, “let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” I believe the answer lies in the definition of the following words, Water, darkness and Light.

Keep in mind, there was yet no land visible, no hydrologic cycle, no sun to cause evaporation. no moon for tidal effects, etc. Also the Holy Spirit is moving or fluttering above the waters, ready to move on God’s spoken words.

I will stop here. Respond to one issue at a time. I believe there is something that can be gained here if we all respond with Bible and verse, keep an open mind and heart for truth, and an desire to seek into the deeper things of God.

Dear Prays4u. I thought I had posted this reply a few weeks ago. It must not have gone in. Sorry.

Prays4u asked, “How could the spirit world already exist? They are not “eternal” as God is, was, and always will be. They too were created…my question is…when? Only God has never had a beginning…not angels.

Phil said, “Lets take it from the beginning. The Father and Son are from eternity.

They first created the spirit world, angels, Cheibim, seraphim, etc. How long ago? I don’t know. In OUR time it may have been eons ago.

Lucifer in time past made a decision to overthrow the kingdom of God.

God then created the literal heavens and the earth. Heavens meaning the space of the atmosphere, outer space as in atoms, molecules, etc. Yet no galaxies, solar systems, no stars, suns, moons, etc.

The foundations of the earth were yet covered with water, having no life forms, none.

Lucifer leaves his place before the throne of God. One third of the angels also leave their place in heaven, following behind Lucifer to this baron, water covered earth. The big question is WHY?

This was only place they could come. It was as if God corralled them here, as one would corral cattle. I feel this is where God had decided to deal with Lucifer and the fallen angels. This was the will of God working. Spirit creatures, dwelling for the first time on a material earth, this without God.

These fallen angels descended from a higher place (God’s third heaven) and come down to a lower place, a baron empty water covered earth.

The Holy Spirit first, and then Jesus (the Word of God) also called the Light of the world come down from their place in heaven to begin the creation as we know it.

Land, seas, Mt. valleys, every known life form, and man who is in the image and likeness of God, each part, having its part in the whole. The stage is now set for God to deal with Lucifer, and these fallen spirits.

God now puts Adam in a special place that He had prepares for him.

God instructs Adam to watch and keep this place called the Garden of Eden.

He also instructs Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge, of good and evil. THIS BEFORE EVE WAS FORMED.

God implies that evil exists, (tree of good and evil.) We know that God did not create evil, implying that the fallen angles and the serpent were already on earth, dwelling near by. When God is not sitting as King and Lord, evil rules.

Adam was not aware of the events that had taken place in heaven, and of the presence of the serpent. After Adam and Eve had eaten from the forbidden tree, Gen.3:22, God said, “The man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.”

Also, if only God and Adam were in the garden, what exactly was Adam to watch and guard? God was warning Adam that evil was at the door, and only by hearing and obeying God’s word would Adam have any protection against this fallen angel. This was the beginning of believing by FAITH. Adam failed.

That’s a brief summery. It has many proven Scriptural proofs attached to it. One creation, it all fits.”

These are my thoughts, and I am attempting to support them with the series of articles on Gen.1.

Thanks Phil LaSpino

I would like to add a note to what David Lazarus commented on. David quoted 2 John 7, “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

Today many sects, cults and even the Muslims believe that Jesus Christ came (was born) in the flesh. Some admit Him to be a great prophet, others say He was a spirit creature from heaven come in the flesh, others say He was the son of God, note lower case (son) come in the flesh, and others, that He was, a god come in the flesh. Again note lower case (god,) meaning one of many gods, sons, or spirit creatures, depending on what religion they represent.

What they never mention concerning, 2 John 7, is that Jesus Christ was also resurrected in the flesh, coming from death to life, therefore He will again return (come) in the flesh.

This does not only include the incarnation, “God manifest in the flesh,” but also the resurrection, and return of Jesus in the flesh. The teaching of anti-Christ is that Jesus will not come (or is not coming back) in the flesh. The Greek present participle implies both the first and second coming. Jesus is called the coming one.

Hebrews 10:37, “Yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry.”

Phillip Laspino www.seekfirstwisdom.com