Debate: Who Are The 144, 000 of Revelation 7 ?

Who are the 144,000? Are they spiritual Israel? or are they Jews’, born in the line of Abraham?

The question has been raised, “Who are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14? Are they Spiritual Israel as some suppose, or are they the literal descendents of Jacob as others claim?

If reader agrees, he will take the position that the 144,000 are, Spiritual Israel. Phil takes the position that they are literal Israel. This is a debate. Can either side prove scripturally the truth of this matter?

Concerning my debating of Scriptural matters, the corner-stone for my proofs, lies cemented in the correct interpretation and definition of Greek and Hebrew words. On my web-site is a Greek to English dictionary I have been in the process of writing for the past 5 years.

Concerning Greek and Hebrew words my rule is, nothing shall be added, nothing taken away from their meaning. All are welcome, if you enter into the debate, stay with the subject up for discussion. So lets get started.

I read the two article written by Reader. I will reply to them, on a step by step basis.

The debate concerns Revelation 7 and 14. The question is, Who are the 144,000?

Reader wrote, “Was His (God’s) promise of an everlasting inheritance made to a Middle Eastern nation of geopolitical or genealogical stature, or was that promise made to an Israel which is an elect, diverse and spiritual people?

Is Israel in God’s eyes defined by genealogy, or does being an Israelite mean having a personal relationship with the Messiah? These are pertinent questions which cannot be lightly esteemed, nor brushed aside with tired platitudes,         cli-che’s, and colloquialisms like literalism and liberalism.”

Phil said, “I agree with your comment that this matter cannot be lightly esteemed, not brushed aside.

My first question is what is the proper meaning of the words, “Israel and Israelites,” as it is mentioned and used in Revelation 7 and 14, also throughout the rest of the Scriptures.

According to the Greek and the Hebrew language, who and what are the Scriptures referring to when they speak of Israel and the Israelites?

Israel: Strong’s, #2474 system. The following is taken from my dictionary.

The word Israel means, “Wrestler with God.” This is a name given to Jacob after wrestling with the angel of the Lord, Genesis 32:28, The Lord said to Jacob, “Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel.”

This is the first time we can find the name “Israel,” in the Bible. Here is where it was given birth by God.

In the N.T. it is spoken ONLY in reference to Jacob’s posterity as in the following verses,

1. Matthew 10:6, Acts 7:22, “The house of Israel.”

2. Acts 4:10, 13:17, “This people of Israel.”

3. Acts 7:23-37, 9:15, “Children of Israel.”

So in generality, Israel for the Israelites, the children of Israel, spoken in the O.T. of the kingdom of Israel in opposition to that of Judah;

But in the N.T. it applies to all the descendants of Israel (the 12 tribes) that remained.

Matthew 2:6, “For out of thee shall come a Governor (ruler) that shall rule my people Israel.”

Matthew 2:20-21, An angel of the Lord said to Joseph, “Take the young child (Jesus) and his mother, and go into the land of Israel.”

Matthew 8:10, Jesus speaking to the Centurion said, “I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.”

Matthew 15:31, The people, “Glorified the God of Israel.”

Romans 10:1, Paul said, “My heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.” Ver.2, they (the Jewish people) had a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

The second Greek word for Israel: Israelite: Israelites: 2475, it is an Israelite. So according to the N.T.

John 1:47, Jesus said, speaking of Nathanael, “Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile (deceit!)”

Acts 2:22, Acts 3:12, Acts 5:35, 13:16, 21:28, “Ye men of Israel.”

Romans 9:4, “Who are Israelites?”

Romans 11:1, Paul said, “For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”

2 Corinthians 11:22, Paul said, “Are they Hebrews? So am I, Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.”

Reader, if you have another recognized and established definition of the above words, name your source and present it before the readers.

As for me, the above recognized and established Greek definitions given above, give us strong evidence to the words of Revelation 7:4, “I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed 144,000 of all the tribes of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.”

The above should be conclusive proof and give evidence to the fact that according to the Greek and Hebrew language when speaking of Israel and the Israelites, the language refers to,

“The children of Israel, the house of Israel, the men of Israel, the descendant so Israel, Jacob’s posterity, this throughout both the Old and New Testament.

This evidence should prove to any skeptic who the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 are. Your response is welcome.

Reader wrote, “In Romans Chapter 9, we see that Paul is in sorrow for the Israelites because he knew that their rejection of Christ has left them in blindness and without a Deliverer. And because of the promises that God had made concerning Israel, it would appear to some that those promises have been abrogated in the light of this dire judgment upon them. Paul is addressing the obvious question, ‘if both the Jew and the Gentile have salvation by faith alone, and the majority of Jews have come under God’s judgment, how then can God be seen as the Savior of Israel?’

We begin this study in Romans chapter 9 where the Apostle Paul deals with this very question of ‘The Promises made to Israel’ and why Israel is still under judgment.

Romans 9:6 “Not as though the Word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”

In making this distinction, God is unambiguously illustrating that the identifying characteristic of the Israel of God ‘not’ in the flesh.

Judaism, but in the Spirit, and is found in the sovereign electing work of God, not in genealogical descent. Thus we see that the covenantal promises of God were not to Israel after the flesh, but to the true spiritual Israel who are all those in Christ.”

Phil responds. “Reader, I will take one issue at a time. Lets talk about!

Romans 9:6 “Not as though the Word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”

This is an interesting combination of words. Lets see if we can unfold this verse, which has ties to the promises of God made to Abraham; a promise having its fulfillment in Christ alone.

Do I have this straight? Your saying, when Paul uses the term Israel in Romans 9, he is inferring that these are NOT literal Jews, but represent the church, called by some spiritual Israel?

The first problem I have with this reasoning is; Your implying that from the hundreds of times the name “Israel” is mentioned in the Bible, EVERY time it refers to the 12 tribes, this verse being the exception?

If what you say is correct, what part of the Christian church represents Reuben, or Juda, or Asher, or Manasseh, or any other tribe? I don’t see how any one who speaks of a spiritual Israel (the church) can answer that question. 

And if they did answer the question, based on what Biblical evidence would they have made this assessment, except by speculation? This form of thinking or theory goes against the whole teaching of who and what Israel represents throughout the Scriptures.

The problem: If someone can change the meaning here of an established term (Israel) then where does it stop? What would prevent others from doing the same? What a bad precedence to set.

Word changes not supported by a correct interpretation of the language can put a spin on every doctrine in the Scriptures. Any conclusive proofs and all evidence are to the established by facts. According to the Greek and Hebrew language when speaking of Israel or the Israelites, the language refers to literal people. As in,

The children of Israel, the house of Israel, the men of Israel, the descendant of Israel, and Jacob’s posterity. There is no other definition attached to this particular word.

The Jehovah Witness play this game of changing the meaning, adding to, or omitting from words in order to set the foundation for their many false teachings, as do many other false religions.

Is it possible that this verse in Romans 9:6, has a very different meaning from that which you are stating? Let’s examine it closely.

The question here is, does the failure of the Jews to respond to the gospel of Christ at the time of Christ in general asserts that God’s promises to Abraham and others are unsuccessful? Of course it doesn’t.

Romans 3:3, “For what if some did NOT believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?”

This rejection of the Messiah by the Jewish people was an example of the principle of sovereign choice. We can see God’s rule of selection working here.

In the context of Rom.9:6 we must read Rom.9:13. Paul mentions Jacob and Esau. Here is God’s sovereign choice among the physical descendants (the Hebrew is, “tekna,” meaning born ones) of Abraham and Sarah. Through Jacob God established the spiritual line of promise, they being the heirs of His promise.

By Abraham and Hagar was born Ishmael. Also included in this were the six sons of Keturah. These also were physical descendants (the Hebrew is, sperma, meaning born ones,) BUT, these were not counted as Abraham’s children.

Genesis 17:7-8, God said, “I will establish my covenant between me and thee (Abraham and Sarah) and thy seed after thee — for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land — for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Therefore the privilege of being God’s children does not depend on physical descent,

Matthew 3:9, “And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”

Genesis 21:12, God told Abraham, “In Isaac shall thy seed be called.”

Paul repeats the principle in Romans 9:6. For emphasis Romans 9:6, can be stated in the following manner.

“It is NOT the natural (literal) children the born ones of the flesh, who are God’s children but it is the children of the promise, (tekna, born ones) who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring; the children of Isaac.”

To be a physical descendant of Abraham is not enough; God’s children must be chosen of God,

Romans 8:33, “It is God that justifies.”

His children must believe in Christ,

Romans 4:3, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

God gave us assurance that His promise of Messiah would come through Isaac (the spiritual line) and not Ishmael (the fleshly line.)

Before Esau and Jacob were born, God had chosen Jacob, passing over Esau.

Genesis 25:23, “The elder shall serve the younger.”

Malachi 1:2, “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob.”

So to conclude, the prophets were not speaking only of the persons of Jacob and Esau, but of the nations to which they had given rise. The selection of Jacob (Israel) was approved by Divine favor, concluding in the spiritual line of Israel.

The passing over of Esau and others (those concerning the flesh) were now called Gentiles. This is the Israel of the flesh. Why? Because of their anger, disfavor and hatred of the LORD, these Gentile nations practice and speak against God continually.

I believe the above thoughts and comments are reasonable, understandable, and answer to Revelation 7 and 14, “Who are the 144,000.” Also to whom Islam, and Atheism, Gnosticism owe their roots. These are the haters of God.

Phil LaSpino

Reader wrote, “The problem I am having is, that your adding a new meaning to the word Israel. There is nobody, no-one who can be a Jew, but a Jew according to the Hebrew and Greek of that word.

Non-believing Jews and Believing Jews, are Jews by blood just the same.

Reader said, “What can’t someone get from this, if NOT ALL Israel, is Israel, then who else is there that makes up that part of Israel?”

Phil said, “Easy answer, NOBODY.” That is unless some-one calls saved Gentiles Jews, or a denomination believes they are, “spiritual Israel.” But they are not; they are a new creature in Christ as are believing Jews; one body in Christ, a new man.

Yes, the non-believing Jew is separated spiritually from believing Jews, but both are the sons of Abraham, not the Gentiles.

Wouldn’t it be them that has “have received the Spirit of adoption” which makes us also the children of God, “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” Romans 8:15,17.

Reader said, “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;” Romans 9:4. 

Phil said, “Again this verse is speaking of Jews only, as in the 3000 at Pentacost, the apostles etc. who have received the Lord.

Phil LaSpino

If we were to read Romans 9:3 thru 13, I believe one word can give us a clearer understanding that Paul is only speaking of Jews, saved and unsaved.

In Romans 9:3 we see the word Kinsmen. The Greek follows.

Kinsmen: Greek is, suggenes. Adjective. Kin, kindred, related; substantive. or a noun or name, a part of speech which expresses something that exists.

A kinsman, relative, one of the same family. Mark 6:4, “his own kin.” Luke 1:36, “thy cousin Elizabeth,” with verse 58, “her cousins heard.” Luke 2:44, “their kinsfolk.” Luke 14:12, “thy kinsmen.” Luke 21:16. John 18:26. Acts 10:24. Septuagint for Hebrew, Leviticus 18:13, “kinswoman.” Leviticus 24:45. Joshua 21:27, “families.”

In a wider sense, as one of the same nation, a fellow countryman, spoken by Paul of the Jews as being all descended from a common ancestor; Romans :3, “Kinsmen according to the flesh.” Romans 16:7-11-21.

Now continue this thinking into verses 4-5-6-7- etc. and you will see that I am correct in that verse 6 is speaking only of Jews, saved and unsaved, those of the flesh, and those who have received Christ.

Phil. LaSpino

Reader wrote, “Paul knows that Judgment has come upon the nation of Israel. “For blindness in part has happened to them,” (Romans 11:25) wherein they are without God’s light and in spiritual darkness. As a nation, they no longer ‘typify’ or represent God’s Covenant congregation.”

Phil replied, this statement, “As a nation, they no longer ‘typify’ or represent God’s Covenant congregation,” is not true. You have put no emphases on the words, “In part.”

Yes the many, the greater part of the Jewish people rejected Messiah, but this was a hardening IN PART ONLY until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. There has been, and remains a small number of the whole house of Israel that God has set apart for Himself.

In verse 15, Paul speaks of the receiving of Israel back, not as following, but as contributing largely in the bringing of the conversion of the world to Christ. This started with the early church which were for the most part Jews and continues to this day as it will in the future.

Romans 11:15, “For if the casting away of them (the Jews) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them (the Jews) be, but life from the dead?” Yes, for the most part the Jews have been and are dead in Christ. But not all are dead.

Read Ezekiel’s prophesy concerning the valley of dry bones. Israel will come back from the dead. Their bones have come up from the dust of the ground. God will soon breath a new life into them.

Yes the greater part were cast away, but God has always saved for himself a remnant, Rom.11:1, “Hath God cast away his people? God forbid (certainly not.)”

This generation has witnessed the power of the Almighty. What a stupendous manifestation of His power upon the spirit of men when the Jews were drawn back to the land of promise in 1948. This event changed the minds of many skeptics in both the Christian and Gentile world. A miracle and promise from God fulfilled this after the most horrific holocaust in the history of mankind.

God lives, His will can not be undone by man. The Jews outnumbered 80 to 1 by the Arabs, six wars, yet today they are the most powerful nation in the Middle East. Why? because God is in charge.

Romans 11:26, “All Israel shall be saved.” Yes, Israel will be delivered from the terrible tribulation by their Lord, their Deliverer. The word ALL used in this verse, does not mean EVERY Jew living at Christ’s return will be born again. Many will fall as seen from the judgments sent upon them in Revelation.

In Romans 11:26, Paul quotes Isaiah 59:20-21, “The Redeemer (Christ) shall come to Zion (Israel,) and unto them (the Jews) that turn from transgression in Jacob (come to repentance,) — this is my covenant with them (the Jews,) saith the LORD; My Spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall NOT depart out of thy (the Jews) mouth, not out of the mouth of thy seed (descendants,) not out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and forever.”

Rom.11:12, “If the fall of them (the Jews) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing (failure) of them (the Jews) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (the Jews) fullness?”

In conclusion, as a people, as a nation, the Jews live, and a remnant will always be saved for future service of the Lords will. This includes the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14.

This is the end of the debate concerning this subject. Hopefully, we both learned from it. A special thanks to the Reader who took part.

Phil LaSpino www.seekfirstwisdom.com