My God, My God (updated)
The Easter season is fast approaching, and for the past 10 years I have been asking the same question. As for the status-quo, the existing responses I receive, are spotty, incomplete, without Biblical authority, taken out of context of all surrounding passages, many repeating only what they have been taught and none making any sense.
The question is, Was Jesus speaking to the Father when He said, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" From the words one would get the impression that this was the case and that Jesus was speaking to His Father. The pretext of the replies I receive leaves me to feel that they are put forth to conceal the real intention of the verse in question, maybe not intentional, but put forth anyway.
Besides this, the responses I receive leave to many unanswered questions, they not fitting the context of the verses before and after the verse in question.
So, I say emphatically, "NO," Jesus could not have been speaking to His Father. I will put forth my reasoning.
I believe that most in the Christian community today get stuck on the first think they hear about Scriptural subjects. If it sounds good, it must be right. From this position, no evidence, no matter how thoroughly presented can make them reconsider their responses. I only ask that you consider my evidence on the subject, reason them out, then draw your conclusions.
Peer-pressure can be detrimental to free and reasonable thinking. Personally I like to ask questions, examine both the Greek and Hebrew words involved, the text and context. Then with the help of the Holy Spirit, I would expect to establish a correct answer to any important Biblical question.
In researching any subject at hand, if my conclusions agree with the teaching being put forth, that's fine, if not, I will challenge the teaching presented. If It can be shown that my findings are incorrect, I will recant. At heart, I must be a brother to the Bereans'. Researching a subject thoroughly is good policy, also the Scriptures encourage us to do just that.
It appears that a great deal of personal opinions, personal feelings and old time religious opinions are the reason most believe that Jesus was speaking to His Father.
Any way, I will present my case on the subject. Keep in mind, this is a Bible study, based on a whole bunch of questions that need answering if you say Jesus was speaking to His Father.
The way we respond to the following questions will show why the teaching can be affirmed, rejected, or needs to be investigated further.
1. Is Jesus God?
2. If you believe Jesus to be God, can He never NOT be God? In other words can He ever change in for one second?
3. Did the Father send His Son?
4. Did Jesus of His own free will leave heaven, come to earth, take on the form of a man, this in order to finish His Father's work?
5. Did Jesus know of His pending death on the cross?
6. Was Christ's death prophesied in the O.T?
7. Did Jesus die for any sin that He had committed?
8. Was Jesus both the son of man, and the Son of God?
9. Has Jesus ever changed, or will He ever change?
10. Did the apostiles forsake = (abandon) Him?
11. Did the Jewish people forsake Him?
12. Did the Jewish religious leaders forsake Him?
13. Did the Romans leaders, both political, and military forsake Him?
14. When Jesus went to the cross, how many people went to suffer and die with Him?
16. Who was it that raised the Lord from the grave?
17. Was there any other way for men to be forgiven of their sins if Jesus did not go to the cross?
These are my questions. If you answer the questions correctly, you should come to a correct conclusion to the original question of, "Who was Jesus speaking to when He said, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me."
Let us first examine the Greek word, "forsake, and forsaken: The Greek is, egkataleipo. To leave behind in any place or state; generally. To leave. It is a transitive verb meaning that it expresses action that passes from the agent to the object.
a. By implication. Forsaken means to leave in the lurch, as in to forsake, to desert, to abandon. Old and New Testament examples of how the word "Forsaken," is used follow.
John 16:32, Jesus said, "Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone (or forsake me:) and yet the Father is with me."
1. Matt.27:46, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Also found in Mark 15:34, quoted from Ps.22:1.
2. Ps.22:1, "David said, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me."
3. 2 Cor.4:8-9, "We are, -- persecuted, but not forsaken."
4. 2 Tim.4:10, Paul wrote, "Demas hath forsaken me," ver.16, "no man stood with me, but all men forsook me."
5. Heb.10:25, "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together," ver.13:5, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
6. Deut.31:6-8, "the LORD -- He will be with thee, He will not fail thee, neither forsake thee."
7. Isa.1:8, "they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Also,
8. Isa. 62:4, "Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken."
9. Isa.62:12, "The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, sought out, a city not forsaken."
10. Isa.49:14, "Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my LORD hath forgotten me
11. Isa.54:6-7, "For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou was refused, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee."
Also, Past particle, expresses completed action. As
Acts 2:27, "thou wilt not leave = (forsake, abandon) my soul in hell," quoted from Ps. 16:10, where Sept. "leave."
Above is how the word forsaken is used, it meaning abandoned, deserted, left out on a lurch, left alone.
From the words themselves, Jesus appears to be speaking to His Father. But is there any evidence that we can produce that would disprove that teaching?
Lets go back to the 17 questions.
If you answered YES to the first question, "Is Jesus God,"
You need to ask yourself, if Jesus is God, than how can God the Father "forsake" God the Son? It would be as if the Father had abandoned Himself. Because the Father sent His Son to do and finish His work, and Jesus now sends us to do the work of the Gospel; If the Father had forsakes His Son, how could I trust Jesus not to forsake me if things go bad? Did He forsake His apostiles when they were caught and killed? This thought would have set a bad precedent. Also it would enforce the cults teaching that Jesus is not really God, our Creator, but only a god, a prophet, or a good man, but definitely not God"
Heb.1:3, "Who being the brightness of His (the Father's) glory, and the express image of His (the Father's) person, and upholding all things by the word of His power."
Express meaning, It refers to something graven, cut into, stamped or graven into. The words here a quite different from man being made in God's image and likeness. So ask yourself, who can be like God, except God Himself.
1 Cor.11:7, "For He (Jesus) is the image and glory of God (the Father.)"
The answer can be applied also to question two. When can Jesus not be God? He can't. "He is always, from eternity past to eternity present, "upholding all things by the word of His power." Not for one moment can He not be God, never, or ever.
3. Did the Father send His Son? The answer is Yes.
A. John 3:16, "God (the Father) so loved the world, the He gave His only begotten Son (Jesus.)
B. John 3:17, "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him (Jesus) might be saved."
C. Mark 9:37, Jesus said, "Whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but Him (the Father) that sent me." So why would He forsake the one He sent?
4. Did Jesus of His own free will leave heaven, come to earth, take on the form of a man, this in order to finish His Father's work? The answer is Yes.
5. Did Jesus know of His pending death, and expect to die? Answer is, Yes.
6. Was Christ's death prophesied in the O.T? Answer is Yes. Ps.22:16, "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." Read all of Ps.22.
Read all of Isaiah 53.
7. Did Jesus die for any sin that He had committed? Answer is No. He was, 1 Pet.1:2, "A lamb without blemish and without spot."
8. Was Jesus both the son of man, and the Son of God? Answer is Yes. The flesh was that of man, the soul and spirit of Christ was from the Holy Spirit. His name shell be called, "Emmanuel, God with us."
9. Has Jesus ever changed, or will He ever change? Answer is No. Heb.13:8, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever."
10. Did the disciples forsake = (abandon) Jesus? Answer is Yes. Matt.26:56, "All this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook Him (Jesus) and fled."
11. Did the Jewish people forsake Him? Answer is Yes. Mark 15:13, "And they (the people) cried out again, Crucify Him."
12. Did the Jewish religious leaders forsake Him? The answer is Yes. They lead the people.
13. Did the Romans leaders, both political, and military forsake Him? Answer is Yes, they honored Caesar as their lord.
14. When Jesus went to the cross, how many people went to suffer and die with Him? Answer, None. Ps.22:11, "there is none to help."
16. Who was it that raised the Lord from the grave?
It was Jesus Himself. John 10:17-18, Jesus said, "My Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to TAKE IT AGAIN. This commandment have I received of my Father."
For those who will say that the Father could not look upon sin as Jesus hung from the cross. My reply is this, When did Jesus or the Father ever look upon sin favorably? Yet in the O.T. under the law, when did God ever reject any offering of a First born Lamb, one without spot or blemish as a sin offering, this for the sins of the people? He never did.
Some may say it was the pain He was suffering that made Jesus cry out, "My God, My God. This may be true but I don't think so. My reasons,
As for the pain and agony He suffered, no one will never fully realize. We can look at the following to best get an idea of the agony He suffered. The words Excruciate, and Excruciating. The words come from the Latin, Ex. and Crux. meaning, "to torment from a cross." This word was invented to reveal the amount of pain suffered in the crucifixion, for no other Greek word came close to revealing the pain and agony of crucifixion.
Before the crucifixion Jesus had been beaten by fists, had a crown of thorns driven into His head, beaten again with reeds, was scourged, meaning whipped him with a Roman scourge. With these scourging on His back and legs, He most likely lost a lot of blood. The sharpened animal bones places at the end of the lashes cut Him to the bone. The metal tied to the end of the lashes gave the skin very deep trauma. Now spikes were driven into His wrists, and feet. each hitting very sensitive nerves, causing extreme pain.
Jesus hung in a position where it has been estimated that His joints in the shoulder, elbow, and wrist came out of joint,and his arms were stretched out from 2 to 4 inches. His tendons and ligaments kept his arms from tearing away from His body. Most likely He was in shock, His blood pressure was extremely low from a lose of blood. Yet He was coherent for He spoke the following,
Some claim that in His pain and agony Jesus may have been out of His mind with pain, crying out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me." At a quick glance, this seems reasonable. Therefore we must examine every thing that went down just before and just after Jesus spoke these words.
John 19:26, While hanging on the cross, "When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom He loved, He (Jesus) saith unto His mother, Woman behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple Behold thy mother!"
Here Jesus seems to be aware of his surroundings, and able to comprehend and reason out His answer to this situation concerning His mother. He asking the apostle John to care for His mother upon His death.
One of the thieves on the cross said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Understanding the request, Jesus replied, "Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
Again Jesus seem to comprehend the words of the man, and responds to him as one having authority and control.
Moments after he said, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Jesus said, John 19:28, He, "knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst."
He seemed to understood His goals, and finished the work of the cross. Also that He was aware of His physical needs, for He said, "I thirst."
The last thing He said, was, Luke 23:46, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." Does this sound like a man who was out of His mind with pain, and a man who had been forsaken by His Father?
Again His last words were, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, He gave up the ghost (He died.)"
The above makes me to understand that Jesus did not say what He said because He was out of His mind with pain, nor was He incoherent, insane, nor did He feel forsaken by His Father, But by the people he loved and wept for.
Did God ever reject the offering (the lamb) from a high priest if the priest had purified himself properly, and followed the law according to the way it was set down? Now apply this to Christ. He was a Lamb, sent by the Father, without spot or blemish, the perfect offering for sin. This answers question # 7. The Lamb, Jesus, Rev.13:8, "a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." A sacrifice made before the foundation of the earth was formed. This whole event had been foreordained by Jesus Christ from before the world was, for He is the author and finisher of our faith.
To understand what, or who was forsaken, you have to understand the incarnation of Jesus Christ. You are looking at two very different natures, Deity and humanity, perfect humanity without sin. God has not flesh and blood so therefore God could not have died on the cross. That would be impossible. The Logos took on flesh and became the Son of God, and the son of man. Both God, and man.
Matthew wrote in Matt.1:20-21-22. "Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived = (begotten) in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou = (Joseph) shalt call His name Jesus." Matt.1:23, "they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, "God with us." Here we see the deity, and the flesh become one man. Begotten of the Holy Ghost. God manifest in human flesh.
1 Tim.3:16, "God was manifest in flesh."
1 Tim.2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."
In this form of a man, Jesus still did what God could only do. He prophesied future events, He forgive sins, raise the dead, healed, and made promises only God could, or would keep.
Now the most powerful argument can be found in John 10:17-18, Jesus said, "my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power = (authority) to lay it down = (die,) and I have power to take it again = (be resurrected back to life.)
What He was saying is, neither the Jewish or Roman authority had any power over Him. He lay down His life voluntarily and gladly, and that no man could take it from Him. Then He said, I will give to you the fullest proof of this authority, by raising in three days that very mutilated, beaten, body from the grave by my own power and authority. See,
John 10, and also John 2:19, Jesus said, "Destroy this temple= (His body) and in three days I will raise it up." Notice personal pronoun in all cases, "I have power," and "I will raise it up."
So I conclude that from the above, Jesus was not speaking to His Father because of pain. I conclude that to say to the Father, "Why have you forsaken me," would have cast much doubt as to the trust He had in His Father and for His own plan of salvation. He did say in John 16:32, "yet the Father is with me."
I believe the meaning to these words, can be applied to Jesus being King of the Jews. As the King of the Jews, Jesus was speaking of the future demise of the people, as David had done. David was a man after God's own heart when he spoke these words, it was the nation that was left forsaken by God, not David himself. Jesus swore upon the Highest authority, that being Himself, for He is God, "My God, my God."
Also see the history of the Jews from the time of Christ's death. They were destroyed by the Romans, both as a nation and a people. Most were sent into captivity, many killed or persecuted by various nations over the centuries. The inquisitions, the holocaust the terror the Muslim nations, Spanish inquisitions, Russian persecution of the Jews, the Germans, Roman machine, the Turks, etc. Yes Jesus was speaking as King, prophesying the future catastrophes that would come upon this people and this nation, this for having forsaken Him.
It was the people, the nation that had forsaken Him as Messiah, they crucifying the Son of God who had been sent to save them. This was a just reward upon this people for the murder of their King and Saviour.
Thank you,
Phil LaSpino www.seekfirstwisdom.com
Added to above article after a reader commented.
Another reason why I believe Jesus was not speaking to His Father when He said, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me."
Luke 13:34-35, Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I (personal pronoun) have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"
(Jesus now pronounces the sentence upon this corrupted nation and people, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is He = (Jesus) that cometh in the name of the Lord." This comes from Deut.32:11, where the LORD said, "as an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them beareth them on her wings." With ver.9, "the LORD'S portion is His people."
In Matt.24:30-31, Jesus is prophsying of His second coming. In John 16:14, Jesus said, "He (the Father) shall glorify me: ver.15, All things that the Father hath are mine." ver.16, A little while, and ye shall not see me. -- a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father." John 16:7, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
John 14:2-3, "I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. ver.6, "no man cometh to the Father but by me." ver.10, Jesus said, "I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. etc. etc.
This is the way I see the events at the cross unfold. He is speaking to the one thief, John, His mother, He asked for water, Now He looks down on the people whom He loved, the peoples Christ, (meaning their King, Priest, Prophet.) He came to save them. But they chose to kill Him. Looking on this murdious people He said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me."
Matt.27:39, "and they (the people) that passed by reviled (blasphemed)Him, wagging their heads. And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three day, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. ver.42, "He (Jesus) saved others: himself he cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him."
ver.43, Is taken from Ps.22:8, Davids quote is taken from Ps.22:1. In Matt.23 and 46, they were reversed, the people first said to Him, "He trusted in God: let him deliver him now, if He will have him: Then Jesus replied to them, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me."
The expression My God, may have been an expression as we use it today. For example, when someone has done something they should not have done, we respond, "My God, why did you do that," or something of this sort. But I believe Jesus relpied to the people's comments in ver.46, with Ps.1.
Phil LaSpino
I commented after reader wrote concering original article.
Reader wrote, " Habakkuk 1:13 where it says, "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity". You mean to tell me that God the Father could not look on the sin of any human, however, He can look at all those same humans sin when cast upon His Son? I can't see that anywhere in Scripture."
Phil wrote, I believe the reference in Habakkuk is speaking of, The Word of God, the one we call Jesus. In ver.12, he calls Him, LORD, the Holy One, the mighty God. These are all titles of Jesus Christ, the Word. Also in ver.14, Habakkuk refers to the Creation, and Jesus the Word created all things. Heb.1:10, John 1:3, Col.1:16, etc.
Reader wrote, Heb.2:17, "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Jesus is the form of God that became 100% man...not God the Father.
Phil wrote, "Sorry did not mean to make anyone think that Jesus is God the Father, although Isaiah does say that Jesus will be called, "The everlasting Father." Isa.9:6. Jesus does have a Father who rules from heaven, and all that He has done, and will do is for the Father's glory.
Yes Jesus made himself a little lower than the angels. Yet the demons knew who He was, and they feared Him. He also rebuked Satan, and Satan left Jesus presence when He spoke. God the Word, dwells in the flesh of the man we call Jesus Christ. Also how many time do we see one like the son of man in the O.T. in heaven, and on the earth. We also see Him in Daniels story of the fiery furnace, one like the son of man going before the Father in heaven, Dan.7:13. The One who wrestling with Jacob. Also as the Captain of the host of the LORD, who was seen and spoken to by Joshua. Josh.5:14-15.
Reader wrote, "If God the Father cannot look upon sin, as we have already been told, then why is it so difficult to ascertain that God the Father had to turn away while Christ was covered with all the sin of mankind? I don't see the complexity in this.
Phil said, "Not sure what you mean by, "covered with all the sin of mankind." The sins of mankind were laid at the foot of the cross. In Christ's shed blood, His death, were all the sins of mankind atoned for. Not that Jesus ever became sin. Shed blood is and has always been required to atone for sin, nothing else. The Mosaic law sacrifices were a for-runner to the shed blood of Christ, the difference, Christ's blood gave us the permenant atonement, and the last sacrifice.
Jesus died without spot or blemish, NO SIN, He was not covered with our sins.
Spot and Blemish are the same Greek word, they mean, Spotless, without blemish.
a. pp. 1 Pet.1:19, "a Lamb without blemish and without spot." When spoken as a metaphor. Of Christ, a lamb without blemish, as was required by the Levitical law in regard to all victims; see Lev.1:10, 22:19-22, Septuagint for, "no blemish." So Heb.9:14, "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God (the Father.)
b. Metaph. Blameless. Eph.1:4, "He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." Eph.5:27, "a church -- not having spot, -- without blemish." Col.1:22, "present you holy and unblameable." Heb.9:14. Jude 24, "present you faultless." Rev.14:5, "they are without fault."
Reader wrote, "Even Christ, as fully God and yet fully man prayed in the Garden to have this cup taken from Him if it was the Father's will..."
Phil replies, "This is another one of my pet subjects." I will say this to any who believes and teaches that false teaching, "To say that Jesus did not know, or understand that the only way for men to be forgiven was to go to the cross, shed His blood and to die, is a foolish teaching." I will post again an earlier article concerning this subject, again it is not what the surface text appears to imply."
Reader wrote, " We have to be careful not to elevate one aspect of the Trinity at the expense of the other 2 parts. All 3 are equally God."
Phil replies, "Jesus is the God of the creation, He is the Creator of this world, this to the glory of His Father who rules from heaven. I will post again this article also. Jesus as the Creator, the one who, John 1:4, states, "In Him (Jesus) was life; and the life was the light of men." Compare with Gen.2:7, "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul." This was God, the Word, the one we call Jesus who breathed life into Adam."
Thank you We may not agree, but we can all take part in these types of very important discussions. The only thing I ask is that we all keep an open mind. We all have a great deal to learn, and not to be open minded is to shut ones self off from any future learning, and this includes me.
I enjoy your responses, they are extremely challenging.
Phil LaSpino
Phil responded to a readers comments.
Good morning, woke up at 3:30 A.M. thinking about your latest comments on this subject. What I am not sure of is your answer to questions 1-2-8-9, in the original article, Which are,
Is Jesus God? Does He ever change? When He was manifest in the flesh as a child, was He God? Please clarify your answer, He was God, He was all God and all man, or He was a man?
Remember, Jesus came to finish the Father's work, He was on the Father's timetable, He came to seek and to save the lost, His doctrine was not His, but the Father's. God coming in the flesh was the only way to move men from death to life. No animal, no man could have done or completed the finished work of Jesus Christ.
Your most recent responses in your latest comments were correct. The problem; man, sin and the disobedience spoken of in Dan.4, Zech.1, Hab.1, concern mankind and the sins committed against God. The sinners were and are from the sons and daughters of the first Adam. Jesus being born from above, the second Adam. The previous were born in sin, and died in sin.
The problem is, It was the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that looked down from heaven in Dan, Hab, and Zech. detesting the evil immoral life style and sin all men were in, and remain in to this day.
The inherited sins your speaking of in the above Scriptures concern Adam and all those who came from his loins (everybody born of men.)
Jesus came from above, He is called the second Adam. In His conception, He was born of God in the womb of Mary. He was born without sin, and died without sin.
Now you say the Father had forsaken Him because, "He had all our sin cast upon Him." Remember the word Forsaken means to abandon, leave out on a lurch.
Now if you or anyone else that holds your position will take the time to answer the following questions I may understand your position better.
Question 1. When were the sins of the world cast upon Christ. Was it from His birth? when He was 30 and became our High Priest, King and Prophet (the Christ?) When He was baptized by John? when He came from the garden? When the scourging began? When He was nailed to the cross? or the last few minutes before He died?
Question 2. When were these sins that were cast upon Jesus removed? And when did the Father turn back from the forsaking of His Son? Was it when He died, came out of the grave, or resurrected into heaven?
Question 3, When did Jesus overcome death and hell? When He came down from heaven in conception? When He was 12, and spoke in the temple, reading Isaiah's prophesy, Luke 4:17-18-19-21? Jesus did say, "this day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears." Or when the Holy Spirit came upon Him at His baptism? When He died? When He resurrected, coming from the grave? When He descended into hell? or when He ascended into heaven and sat at the right hand of His Father?
Question 4, When was He given all power and all authority from His Father? Has He always had all power and authority? Was it when He was resurrected, coming from death to life? Was it when He ascended into heaven? Or, has He not received His power and authority as of yet?
Question 5, Was Jesus fully God the Son, or NOT when you say the Father had forsaken Him? If not, when did He stop being God, and for how long? One minute, 1 hour, 6 hr? One more thing,
You wrote, " Phil, to say that Jesus may have used that phrase in this manner is to say that He was taking the Name of the Lord thy God in vain! To say, "Oh my God..." is doing just that! Its taking His beautiful name in vain...using it as a common phrase...a swear word, if you will. Jesus would never have done such a thing.
Phil said, "Not so, in the context of how it was said by Jesus. Why? Because I believe and teach that Jesus is God. God meaning Creator, Supreme over all things of the creation. If anything He was swearing by His own name, title and character. So I ask, what higher authority is there? See,
Jer.22:5, The LORD said, "I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation." Sounds like, Matt.23:38, When Jesus swore the following to His apostles, "Behold your house is left unto you desolate."
Also I said, the above may be aother option. Personally I feel that as the King of the Jews, as David was when he wrote "My God my God, in Ps.22, David was speaking for the people. When Jesus spoke these words, as King, He was speaking of the Lamentation the Jewish people would be speaking and then suffer for the next 2000 years.
They were forsaken of God for killing their Messiah. What suffered was their culture, their cities, religious system, their way of life, their being scattered throughout the world, put into slavery, killed by the thousands and then millions by the Romans, Turks, Muslims, Germans, Spanish, Russians, etc. for 2000 years. What Jesus spoke came to pass."
Phil LaSpino
For those who teach that Jesus is speaking to the Father, they say the Father was rejecting the sins of mankind that were placed on Jesus shoulders or placed at the foot of the cross. If this is so, then the following MUST be answered.
Jesus said, "Why hast thou forsake ME?" "Me," is personal pronoun The objective case of "I," answering to the oblique cases of "ego," in Latin. Follow me; give to me; go with me, Forsaken me, etc.
The "Me," here is speaking of the person, the man, Jesus. The whole person, body, soul and spirit. He speaks nothing of the Father rejecting the sins of mankind that had been placed upon Him. To say that, is to add to Scriptures. So, was the Father rejecting the person of Christ, and not the sin?
I used the following as guide lines for my research on the words in the Phrase, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
I went to the Oxford Dictionary (O.E.D. The most comprehensive Dictionary in concerning the history of the English language, and its words. Also Webster's dictionary first edition 1851, and 1861 Unabridged, and Webster's third new international dictionary, Unabridged, a seven language dictionary. I also borough this material to a Dr. of English at the University of Alabama, and she agrees with the research.
"My God, my God," would be written in the Old Testament, and is used throughout in the following way, "O God, O God," This correct meaning would give a whole new meaning to the phrase in Matt.27:46, "My God, My God."
Lets examine the rest of the words in the phrase.
"WHY:" Greek is, hinati. The word, "Why" means, For what? The original phrase is for what, for why? As an interrogative (a question of inquiry) particle, elliptically (as a part or something omitted,) form the question, "in order that what may take place?" As to what end? Why? Wherefore? So if Jesus were speaking to the Father, you mean to tell me that He would not know the reason for His rejection?????
The word "WHY," # 2444 is used only 4 other times in the N.T, Once as, "Wherefore."
1. Luke 13:7, Behold these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; WHY (to what end) cumbereth it the ground (It wastes the ground it sits on?"
2. Acts 4:25, "Why (to what end) do the heathen rage,"
3. Acts 7:26, "Why (for what reason) do ye wrong one to another?"
4. 1 Cor.10:29, "Why (to what end) is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?"
5. Matt.9:4, "Wherefore (for what reason) think ye evil in your heart."
So why means,
1. For what cause of reason, interrogatively. I believe Jesus was asking the crowd that stood before Him on the cross, for what reason have you rejected me?
2. For which reason or cause, relatively. The Jews could give no reason.
3. For what reason or cause; for which; relatively. The Jews had no particular reason.
If He was speaking to the Father, would Jesus not understand the reason? But if He were speaking to the crowd it makes sense as a question. He has placed the burden upon them by asking, What law have I broken? What sin have I committed? It was the Jewish people who had broken all the laws concerning His capture, trial, scourging, crucifixion, not Him.
Luke 23:4, Pilate said about Jesus the first time he had me, "I find no fault in this man." When Jesus was brought back to Pilate, he said of Jesus to the chief priests and elders, "Why, what evil hath he (Jesus) done?" So Jesus asked the crowd, "Why hast thou forsaken me?" For what reason? for what cause? Pilate had found none.
How the word, "thou," is used.
"Thou," is the second personal pronoun, in the singular number; Also the pronoun is used in addressing plural PERSONS, (as in a crowd) in the solemn style. It is used only in the solemn style.
Used in middle English and in early modern English at least until the 17 century as the appropriate form of address to a person of lower social status than the speaker, and to friends, hence adopted by the French as the universal form of address.
" My God," meaning "Oh God," is a cry of anguish. The WHY, (for what cause, for what reason?) has thou (referring to the crowd,) pronoun plural. Jesus the first person,
"Forsaken," To abandon; to renounce; to reject. Following is how the word is used in the O.T.
Ps.89:30, "If his children forsake my (God) law, and walk not in my judgements," 32, "Then will I (God) visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes."
Prov. 9:6, "Forsake the foolish, and live, and go in the way of understanding."
Throughout Scriptures, God forsakes His people, when He withdraws His aid, or the light of His countenance." Jesus now withdrew from the people and the land. As the light of the world, He ascended on high.
FORSAKEN," is and impersonal verb meaning, the action of an UNSPECIFIED agent (in this case it would be the crowd) and hence used with no expressed subject. Having no personal reference or connection. Not referring or belonging to any particular person. In this case, it could not be the Father, for He would be a specific person, agent or expressed subject.
Forsaken: To quit or leave entirely: depart or withdraw from: leave, desert, abandon, as FALSE FRIENDS forsake. As in adversity
My conclusion, Jesus the first person, with the impersonal verb "forsaken," to mean the crowd. It was the crowd that had forsaken Him, not the second person, His Father."
Following are reason why I cannot believe that Jesus is speaking to the Father. It has to be the crowd the Jews as a whole had abandoned Him.
Jesus is God the Son.
Jesus was called Emmanuel "God with us."
Jesus is our Lord and Saviour.
Jesus never changes.
Jesus is the King of the Jews.
Jesus Kingdom was not of this earth.
The Holy Spirit was in Him.
Jesus could have called thousands of angels to come to His aid if He chose.
Jesus was sent by the Father.
Jesus was the second Adam come down from heaven.
Jesus was a Lamb without spot or blemish
Jesus died without sin.
Jesus knew of His pending Death.
Jesus quoted Ps.22:1, after the people quoted Ps.22:8. Compare this with, Matt.27:42-46. Its been reversed, the people speaking first.
Jesus knew of His resurrection.
Jesus knew He would again ascent to the Father's throne in heaven.
Jesus promised to return for His bride before He went to the cross.
Jesus promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His people upon His return.
Jesus understood the pain He was to suffer during His crucifixion.
Jesus had been forsaken by all.
Jesus on the cross forgave a man's sins.
The above is from the above three sources mentioned, I know of no better sources in which to examine the meaning of English words and their history. Thank you,
Phil LaSpino
These are the reasons why I cannot believe Jesus was speaking to His Father.
Thank you,
Phil LaSpino